Thursday, November 22, 2007

Larry Brennan Interview Transcript (Scientology Corporate Fraud?)

Interview of Larry Brennan, on November 8, 2007

by Tom Smith, host of WXYB, 1520 am

Hillsborough Community College, Indian Rocks Beach, Tampa, Florida

TS = Tom Smith

LB = Larry Brennan

TS: Welcome to the Edge. I'm you're host Tom Smith. Many of us are not informed of the inner workings of the Church of Scientology, founded by the American writer, L Ron Hubbard. The facade maintained by organized Scientology uses celebrity poster boys and religious pretense. Today on our program we are going to strip that image aside, and look at a few things that really go on.

Our guest is Larry Brennan who has held a number of positions with organized Scientology. He's been the director of all Scientology legal operations outside a litigation area, worldwide from mid 1976 through mid 1981. As the legal Branch One Director of the Guardian's Office Worldwide, he held similar positions prior to that in the United States Guardians Office. He's worked on organized Scientology's corporate evolution in 1981 through 1983 and presented to the leader of the Scientology organization, David Miscavige the planning for that. He was in charge of the Scientology Special Unit and Watchdog Committee, which was an oversight committee designated as member X in 1982 and 1983 working directly with David Miscavige on Scientology's corporate, legal and other external affair matters.

Welcome to the Edge, Larry.

LB: Oh thanks, Tom. It's real good to be here.

TS: Shall we start? Can you kind of give us some background about your involvement with the actual Scientology corporation?

LB: Well, yeah sure. I think you summarized it very well. Bottom line, I was in the Guardians Office in the United States Guardian's Office in 85, late 84, early 86 where we were in charge of the corporate work, corporate structure, tax status, et cetera, of Scientology organizations. Got to work under Hubbard on a number of things then, which may come up on this program, including the move of Flag, the Flagship to Clearwater, Florida and how that was done undercover. We covered a little bit of that on the program we did before.

Then I went to the Guardian's Office Worldwide at Saint Hill Manor in East Grinstead Sussex, England. Was there for about five years on running the legal outside of the courts and then went and did what they call their, "corporate sort out " and worked a Special Unit. Worked directly with "DM" - David Miscavige. This was a period of time when he was supposedly in Author Services and he has said in courts and various declarations that he was not involved in running the Church then, but he was, and I worked directly under him, but.

By way of a summary I suppose, I would say that Scientology, L Ron Hubbard is the acknowledged founder of Scientology, and he always ran it when he could, despite many statements that he had retired, or what have you, as the executive director, he continued to run it. And he ran it until Miscavige ran it, underneath Hubbard in 81-82 and then finally Miscavige took over on Hubbard's demise. But, despite a religious, caring, maybe decent front, put out by the organization it was really was built and run and controlled using constant lies and deception and what I consider fraud, as well as outright brutality and abuses of countless others. And this is just a summary and we can go into details there shortly.

It was run like this at one time by Hubbard via Miscavige, that's when they did the corporate evolution in 81 - 82. But really in my opinion here, and this is just my opinion, having worked with Miscavige and seeing the Hubbard orders at that time. Miscavige was a very poorly educated, I don't think he had been through high school when he was a kid. And he worked directly under Hubbard who at that time was certainly not at his best - he was very brutal, the type of orders he was given about taking over sectors and dealing with people and spitting on people and all that.

And I think Miscavige was very impressionable and he learned how to operate under Hubbard like that and on Hubbard's demise that's all Miscavige knew was that sort of brutality. It was sort of like, you know, he saw this abuse he learned by abuse and he's now the big abuser. Anyway, he took it to an entirely new level and he controls you know, an empire, financial empire worth certainly at least, hundreds of millions of dollars if not billions. He completely controls it as a dictator and that's basically a summary of what it was, but what I can go into to whatever degree you'd like as how it got to that point, and what changed and you know, so on and so forth. But I'd like to get some background behind it, but that's sort of a summary of it.

TS: OK. Well, basically can you kind of give us some background about what you did, your roll in the whole a ?

LB: Corporate?

TS: Right

LB: OK, well, in 1981 the Commodore's Messenger Organization acting on orders from Hubbard, and as carried out by "DM" - David Miscavige, actually ended up taking over the Guardian's Office and I was in the Guardian's Office Worldwide at the time so I was asked to go out to report to California for an urgent matter. So I went to Los Angeles and found out that they needed, that the people who were working on a Corporate Sort Out mission to corporately put right the affairs of Scientology were no longer there and they needed somebody else to run it and I ended up being the person to run what's called a "Mission," as a missionaire.

And so what we did is, well first of all, to give you a little bit of background. Just in the months - in the year prior to that, David Miscavige ran a mission called Mission Corporate Category Sort Out, it's known kind of as "MCCS" and that mission was allegedly to set the corporate affairs straight for Scientology and it had people, Gerry Armstrong was on it, he was going to get Hubbard's biography written. Laurel Sullivan was working on the corporate matters. But David Miscavige ran it. And the problem was, David was incompetent, and like I say, he didn't even have a high school education and he would not listen to the advice of the missionaires like Laurel and Gerry. Like for example, they were pointing out the things that were just fraudulent about Hubbard running the organization and yet Miscavige was trying to lie saying that he wasn't and they were trying to really get it so that Hubbard really didn't run it. So it could be run by the hierarchy of the Church and Miscavige didn't want that. Gerry Armstrong was telling them that what he needed to do, was stop all the lies about Hubbard - about his phenomenal accomplishments in life and the military and education and all that, they were totally false. And David Miscavige would not listen to that. And Hubbard was directly involved with it and I had many of Hubbard's orders at that time even in respect to that mission.

Later on, Miscavige testified in court that Hubbard was not involved, but he was. And the bottom line is that mission broke up because they wouldn't do what Miscavige and Hubbard wanted them to do and I ended up on a mission, instead of MCCS it was called Corporate Sort Out. To make along story short, we came up, the problem was, the apparent problem was, that most of the eggs of Scientology corporately were in a corporate basket of a corporation known as the Church of Scientology of California. In it was organizations like the Commodore's Messengers Organization, the Executive Director International's Organization, and major revenue-producing arms like Flag and Advanced Organization of Los Angeles, and American Saint Hill Organization, et cetera.

And what was happening was that there was alot of litigants under attorney Mike Flynn and others that were suing Scientology for various abuses and what have you. And, it was getting at that, corporate you know, big eggs in the basket organization. Really, the Corporate Sort Out was in a large part done to insulate and hide those assets from litigants. Now Miscavige specifically testified in court in the next decade, that was not the purpose, but it was really was one of the big purposes of it. The other one was to protect Hubbard and Miscavige, like the senior people in Scientology so that they could continue to run it without being legally liable for it.

So it was very complicated to say the least but that's what it was about. But what happened is, alot of us on the corporate mission thought that basically we could get it sorted out and there could be a new evolution in Scientology management. It really wouldn't be run like it shouldn't be run, it really wouldn't be money going, like millions of dollars were going to Hubbard under cover and that could stop.

What happened is, we spent millions of dollars, we spent a long time, we got a corporate planning together. I brought it to Miscavige myself and sat with him for a good five hours and answered his questions. And to summarize it all out, because alot of people here aren't going to be corporate people. There were four things that was going to be organized Scientology. the Church of Scientology International, a new corporation would actually manage Scientology. Not Hubbard, not Miscavige, it would be the Church of Scientology International. And in the Church of Scientology International would be the Commodore's Messenger Organization International, the Executive Director International's office. The real management, so that would be cool. They would have contracts with all the other Churches of Scientology, what have you and everything would be real smooth.

The second thing is, we created a body called Religious Technology Center. And it really was not supposed to be management, and it would focus on as it were, the "pureness" of Hubbard's technology covered by the trademarks. OK, that was fair enough. And then the third thing was, money could still go to Hubbard not by cover up and lies as was done before but actually by illegally defensible channels like royalties for his books and what have you. And lastly, Author Services would be created a company called Author Services International or Incorporated and it would be truly an organization that does what it says which is make money on Hubbard's fiction works, and would totally be separate out from the management of the Church of Scientology.

So really with those four things it would be a whole new evolution in Scientology's corporate status and management. It would be honest and straightforward and that's what the corporate sort out was designed to do. But the problem is - it didn't do it, it just made it look like that was the case. And, for example, and I don't want to bore anybody on this but as an example - prior to the corporate sort out, in the years prior there were several million dollars funneled to Hubbard through a phony corporation called Religious Research Foundation.

Now the Mission Corporate Category Sort Out, those guys were trying to figure out how to make that legally defensible, retroactively, like oh my God! What a mistake. What a horrible, thing, that this money, cause Hubbard was putting out issues to all scientologists that he never benefited from Scientology, he never took any money. But the fact is, he was taking several million dollars while staffs were starving. I mean

TS: Yeah

LB: He would advise and write policies that International Management take all the money they can off the top of all the organizations whether they were in Germany or the US or whatever, so if the organizations could not spend them, but then alot of it ended getting funneled to him. So, while that was the thing that happened prior to the corporate sort out and we thought the corporate sort would prevent that from happening in the future, just the opposite happened. For example, in the year after the corporate sort out with Miscavige running things. If you look at testimony from the Julie Christofferson-Tichbourne case, testimony by Homer Shomer and affidavits that were in a case after that, you will find that in 82 alone DM funneled over forty million dollars - not two million like before - but forty million dollars to Hubbard. He in every way, the corporate integrity that was made to appear real - in the new structure - was completely untrue.

He in every way ran organized Scientology through Author Services. And he did that through running the top dogs like he ran the Watchdog Committee chairman, Mark Yeager, at the time, and Watchdog Committee Finance, another Mark. He ran me as Special Unit. He ran Steve Marlow as Religious Technology Center. So he would have meetings over at ASI, secret meetings that we would go to and he would basically tell us who's going to be running the Church, who's not going to be running the Church but it was - it turned out that the corporate structure that was done was made to appear impenetrable and very defensible but it was hiding the same level of fraud even worse than prior to that.

TS: Yeah

So anyway, I could go on with a great deal of detail, but I think that probably one example that explains it the best is - after the corporate structure was done, right, and so now I'm a executive in CSI, in the highest authority body, which is Watchdog Committee, right? And so are seven or eight other people. Well, Miscavige is over in Author Services which is just supposed to just be handling Hubbard's fiction works. But in reality he's ordering us what to do in that we have to send money to Hubbard - not for the fiction works - but for Scientology works. And, it was a weekly demand. In that time period in 82 when forty-million dollars got funneled. There was calls from Miscavige and his people - every single week - a millions got to go - a half a millions got to go. Work out whatever the significance is. He's threatened to strangle people if they didn't do it. I've even gone to the International

TS: This is, Hubbard or is this Miscavige?

LB: This is Miscavige. I've even gone, and this time period where later in courts he said he was Author Services right, not involved in running the church?

TS: Yeah

LB: In that exact time period I have seen him at the churches International headquarters. I've seen him take a top WC member, punch him hard on the mouth. Another one strangled down to the floor. Another one slapped down. Because they wouldn't listen to him and Hubbard. And all this time, Miscavige is saying in court, "I'm not involved in the running of it, we're all separate corporations. Hubbard's not involved." Well, it's totally a lie. Because I was on Watchdog Committee. I had Hubbard's orders every single week. And every week we got orders from him. What to do, and including what to do about non-Hubbard technology in churches. What to do on the corporate stuff and all that. And a it was regular and ongoing

TS: So, if you didn't do those things

LB: He was the enforcer.

TS: Yeah. If you didn't do those things, he would punish people with felony violence?

LB: Oh, absolutely. I mean there were people that came to me, that were busted. That asked if they were going to jail - they've been told they're going to jail and I'm just trying to tell them their not going to jail but they're told they're going to jail. What happened is, there's some things that have been in Jon Atack's book for example, "A Piece of Blue Sky" where he talks about the brutality of taking over the mission network. That is absolutely true. Everything I've read in there, and I've read that whole section is absolutely true and in many cases, and in fact, an understatement. He would regularly use the brutality that he learned - from Hubbard at that time - and he didn't trust anybody. Like little things that haven't been posted, like for example, that are not known - In early 81 I was on the first WISE mission, to incorporate WISE in Lichtenstein.

And the person I was taking my orders from was Hubbard via telexes. And I did incorporate the first WISE Corporation in Lichtenstein which we didn't use but Hubbard said, "the name killed the PR" because it was WISE Limited. But in any event, the significance of this was - 1) Hubbard was running it at the time that Miscavige said Hubbard was not. 2) I know what the real purpose of WISE was and it was nothing that had to do with all the grand goals and beautiful things stated in WISE promotion. The real purpose of WISE was right from Hubbard.

He completely distrusted public scientologists and thought they were going to rip off organizations and they had to be handled with terminatedly and at once. So part of the handling was to set up an organization that would police, corral, control them and even take money from them and keep them off of the organizations lines. And the other part of the handling was to use the newly created finance police, to put people in jail. And put heads on pikes. So Hubbard had ordered that and DM was carrying that out. And Wendell, and if you wanted to see testimony on this, that's very real, there is Don Larson worked under Wendell Reynolds on the In-Finance police, and he did many brutal acts of extortion and that on scientologists and he's even admitted it. You can find it on the Web, his own video, you know where he's apologizing for having done it. Well, I've seen him do it and others do it. But DM says, Miscavige says, as I said later in court, that he and Hubbard were not running things which they were. And they took over from the GO because the GO was brutal and bad and violated Scientology policy and all that. But in actual fact

TS: His wife was running the GO. Mary Sue Hubbard

LB: Hubbard was running the GO


LB: Mary Sue, his wife was known as the Controller, and she was prior to that known, her title was, "Commodore's Staff Seven." I mean, GO - "Commodore's Staff GO." And so, they had to change that name because Commodore was Hubbard, and it made it clear that Hubbard was running Mary Sue who was running the GO. So they changed to Controller so that it would look like she was controlling the GO and not Hubbard but he was. As a matter of fact, when the GO got busted on the FBI raids for just incredible crimes, like trying to, you know from the horrible abuses on Paulette Cooper, to abuses on other people, to infiltration of the US government - all the things that were done - those were done under Hubbard orders. And what happened in the months that followed that FBI raid - is the Guardian's Office and the Commodore's Messenger Organization went into full "all handses" of scores and scores of people doing full time vetting just to get erased from the files all of Hubbard's orders and so on and so forth that were behind these criminal actions. So the thing about Scientology is, corporate structure has never meant much of anything. It's always been camouflaged, it's always been Hubbard when he was competent enough, at least to control it, and then it was Miscavige.

TS: So Miscavige began his career as Hubbard's henchman.

LB: That is absolutely correct and he did it through what was called an, "All Clear Unit" which allegedly was to make it all clear for Hubbard to come out of hiding, but what it did is it broke down into two confidential Special Units. One was called, "Special Project" and that's what DM stated himself and that evolved into being Author Services. Another part of that unit what became known as, "Special Unit." That's the one I ended up running the Special Unit IC. And that went into the Church of Scientology International. But that was how the control was executed. It wasn't on any organizing boards or anything like that, it was Miscavige ran both of those units. To give you another example, how clear cut - for one thing, it's very clear Hubbard lied about his past and his accomplishments and all that and it's very clear that DM has as well. But in my opinion, I think the average judge is going to find that DM's lies became legal perjury and a crime.

And the reason I say that is, he's testified in court with these lies, and he's written declarations under penalty of perjury and filed them in like, the Wollersheim case and other cases in the 90's. For example, here are a couple of little quotes, right. This is from Miscavige under penalty of perjury. He goes, "neither RTC nor I have any corporate authority under any Scientology church including CSI." He says, "the Sea Organization is a religious fraternal order, like the Catholic priesthood with its own rituals and traditions that exemplify and foster members shared and deeply held commitment to the religion. It confers no corporate or ecclesiastical authority. Sea Org members are staffed in many churches of Scientology across the globe. Any authority they have in the church entity that employs them derives from their position in that church structure and not their honorary status in the Sea Organization. "He's got hundreds of quotes like this that are absolutely false. Like he had one - one he's even made a mistake on that he's proven he's a liar. And like for example in one, Section fifty-seven of a Declaration of a Wollersheim case, he says, "I was not involved in that restructuring, but I'm aware of the events that led up to it." And he was talking about the 1981 corporate evolution and restructuring.

TS: Yeah

LB: So, from his declaration he's absolutely not involved. But then if you go to a website called they're praising David Miscavige. They said, here's a quote: "Mr. David Miscavige has worked tirelessly to protect the religion. He authored the early 1980's reorganization of church corporate and management structures that have given the religion years of sustained growth and stable leadership."

So, they can't even keep their lies straight. And also, he didn't author it. I brought it to him. He blew his opportunity of it, of doing it a year prior to that because he couldn't understand it. So he didn't author it but like Hubbard, he starts to claim all these things. But he's even making statements now that are showing as lies, things that he made under penalty of perjury in court cases, so its kind of, it's kind of crazy. And I don't know if you want me to continue to give examples, but I can give you examples for ten straight hours on this.

TS: [laughter] Unfortunately, we don't have that kind of time, it would be great. We'd have to take quite a few breaks I think. Allright.

LB: I think, bottom line is, it goes on and on and on. And honestly, I mean, this is probably, bring somebody inside the Corporate Sort Out for example, on a very simple level that proves this point. When we broke up the Church of Scientology of California - Let's say, just for the Flag area which is now in Clearwater, Florida. We created three new corporations that were relevant to that area - the Church of Scientology International, which is the mother church. That would have a few representatives down there in Florida.

The Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization which would be most of them. And then of course we kept the Church of Scientology of California alive with a few people there. Well, it was us, the missionaires under Miscavige who decided who was going into which corporation. And, even they're quote, unquote "board members" the people we picked to be that, they didn't even know who was going on. We would just say - this one's going to be in this corporation, this one would take the orders from that one. And we were setting up all the window dressing. In fact, we pulled a bunch of students off courses at Flag and sent them all around the world to get the churches to sign the new agreements with the new mother Church of Scientology International.

he local churches for the most part didn't even know who their board members were, they never met. And they weren't allowed to read the agreements. I myself was sent my Miscavige to "Pubs," the New Era Publications in Copenhagen, Denmark, to get them to sign the new royalty contracts with Hubbard. They didn't even get to read them. So, it's not just that, maybe there's a little bit of an out corporate integrity, it's a one hundred percent controlled by Hubbard and then Miscavige with just a whole bunch of camouflage put around it to make it look like it's not.

TS: So these boards of directors, these various corporate entities are - it's all a sham? Am I right?

LB: Oh, absolutely, it was all under the Guardian's Office. I mean, the Guardian's Office held undated resignations of them per Hubbard orders. But the thing is, the big change that Miscavige says happened you know, took over the GO and it's a new era - it's a new era allright. He kept the same Hubbard orders that you know - that in 1982 alone - more scientologists - this is staff and public were abused in what they call a, "gang bang sec check" where a bunch of people go and scream at them on a "meter" and all that.

TS: Well it's kind of, Soviet-style Nazi interrogation.

LB: Oh, absolutely. The more that happened and the more scientologists were declared, beaten and abused and sent to penal camps in that one year under Miscavige than the total of the fifteen years under the Guardian's Office Worldwide.

TS: OK, we should qualify that. Now you said penal camps. What are you specifically referring to?

LB: Primarily what's called the Rehabilitation Project Forces and that's something that Hubbard created and Miscavige used alot and people would be sent to these, where they would be housed for the most part with - there are so many stories on the Internet that people can read of people who have escaped them or left them for one reason or another, and they're telling their stories. But for the most part people lived in squalor, they worked unbelievable hours. They got very little sleep. They were indoctrinated all the time. They had to run around, they were spit upon and in cases where they were up by Miscavige. And it was just a horrible hell.

What shows you, how disingenuous organized Scientology under Miscavige is, that relates directly to this is, for example they have an organization called the International Association of Scientologists. It's nothing more than a bank account to get membership money out of people who want to continue to do services. Well what happens is, they put out a very beautiful, glossy Magazine called "Impact." I mean it's a really high quality in that, it's as good as National Geographic. You know the color photos, and the quality of the paper.

Well, a recent one, I think Issue 115, some earlier this year, came out acknowledging how organized Scientology is behind the universal UN Declaration of Human Rights. And they went and listed all these incredible human rights. You know - freedom of association, of family, and being able to voice your opinion and all this other, and freedom of movement. And in that magazine there's maybe one, maybe two pictures of Hubbard. But there's like fifteen pictures of David Miscavige - smiling, happy. But right when you read that magazine, you have to realize that at same time - there are hundreds of people that have all those rights denied them - on the Rehabilitation Project Forces around the world. Like it's not in some areas. Like the German government for example, won't allow the church to do a Rehabilitation Project Force. Like a camp.

TS: Yeah

LB: At the same time you're reading about these wonderful, grand, beautiful things by organized Scientology, they're violating all of those rights. On their very own people. Many of them, they're own top management people, who were very good people, had very good intentions, were sacrificing their lives to do something they believed in - and you could say maybe it was silly of them, whatever - but they were putting it all on the line, and they'd be the very people you know, sent to these penal camps. They would be slapped. They would be beaten. They would be humiliated. They would be made to divorce. Made to have abortions. A "clear planet" is Scientology's says they want. A planet run by Scientology. You know David Miscaviges version, could be an Orwellian nightmare of you know, families must disconnect from each other, there penal camps for anybody who doesn't tow the line.

TS: It sounds like it's kind of a totalitarian -

LB: I truly understand. I had to go to Germany for a few days and find this out for myself with the German government.

TS: Uh huh.

LB: But I see now why they are so much fighting organized Scientology.

TS: Yeah

LB: Because they've lived through Hitler.

TS: Yes.

LB: They've lived through the whole Naziism, and seen it sweep and take over their country and they've seen the horrid camps and abuses and all that and all, and what, and in my opinion they rightly with an Scientology as organized by Miscavige right now is the beginning, the nucleus of that.

TS: Yeah. This -

LB: Of the Nazis, of the like, my God if these people got big enough, how many people would be broken up from their families,

TS: Yeah

LB: how many people who don't toe the line would be sent away to camps.

TS: Yeah

LB: You see, Miscavige gets very vicious even in his public promotion, there is a protion he's had I've been at seminars where he talks about the total obliteration of psychiatry and how he's going to see that that's done. At the same time, Hubbard has written that a person who has been on Psychiatric lines is not qualified to be in Scientology, so these people would just be sent to camps. Like OMG, can you imagine everybody they consider mentally ill is sent away to penal camps where, you know, whatever happens that would be very ... nasty to say the least!

TS: Yeah it sounds a whole lot like the Soviet gulags, reeducation camps, uh, punishment type camps, people are put through hard labor And given a minimum amount of ah, food just to sus- barely sustain them and indoctrinated in, uh, the dogma of uh, in that case the party, the Communist party but in this case uh, the Scientology organization and this-this forced abortions thing where they actually - some young owmen who, they get pregnant there at -- if they're at one of these bases or Sea Organization International Base or whatever, they're uh, they're not allowed to have children.

LB: Well one, one after another has come out and told that story, you know on the internet and otherwise. It's all over the place, it is so widespread. Um. You know, um... Let me tell you something. The way he gets away with this is not only by having a corporate structure that's very hard - I mean that would cost you millions to penetrate, right?

TS: Uh-huh.

LB: But he will scream, 'Oh! You're religious bigots if you're speaking out against me and I have my rights because this is ecclesiastical policy what we're doing, and we're entitled to our beliefs' and they'll position themselves with every decent religious organization that was ever prosecuted at any time in history and say that now Scientology is being prosecuted.

TS: Yeah.

LB: But think about it here. I really believe in religious freedom, but I've been around to Germany, to the West Coast, to the East Coast, uh, I've met a lot of the people that they consider religious bigots from the Religious Freedom Watch site and so far every single one of them has been a very decent person. Here is - here is an example of when he ways you cannot look into us because this is ecclesiastical religious policy and scripture and you're, you're a bigot if you do, well let's read just a little bit example of these scriptures. Here, for example if you don't mind I'll just take 2 minutes.


LB: Ah, One is a Hubbard Policy he wrote in 1955 called Dissemination of Material. Here's the quote:

"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly." Another quote, another part of their ecclesiastical policy and scripture, Department of Government Affairs Policy of 15 August 1960, "Make enough threat or clamor to cause the enemy to quail. If attacked on some vulnerable point by anyone or any organization, always find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace. Don't ever defend, always attack." Um, and then he goes on with many, many of these, but I'd say probably the most famous one that was ever used against him which they said was cancelled and I'll show you how it's not was Fair Game. For what was called a lower condition, like if you're not doing well in life?

TS: Yeah

LB: Um, at one level you get what's called a suppressive person order, that's somebody they consider is out to destroy Scientology, or you're an SP, right?

TS: Right

And it's called Fair Game, and you may be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. may be tricked, sued lied to or destroyed. Now you will see Scientology representative, 'oh, that was cancelled, it was misunderstood,' and all that stuff. Well, let me read you the cancellation. Ah, Just a little over a year later, the policy called Cancellation of Fair Game came out and it said, um, the practice of declaring people Fair Game will cease. Fair Game may not appear on any ethics order. It causes bad public relations. This policy letter does not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling of an SP. [laughter]

TS: So - so

LB: It's just saying you can still trick, sue, lie to or destroy people, you just can't call it that.

TS: In other words, he cancelled it as a policy but not as a practice.

LB: Correct. And he cancelled as using the name. And think of this, - I mean, if you go to the very first policy of what is meant by Fair game, as in what does it even mean, he says - get this - and he's putting a whole bunch of people in this classification, like thousands of these people were put into this classification by David Miscavige alone in 1982, right?

TS: Yeah

LB: But here it is. By Fair Game is meant: without rights for self, possessions or position. And no Scientologist may be brought before a Committee of Evidence or punished for any action taken against a suppressive person or group during the period that person or group is Fair Game. And it goes on and on, but the thing is there are children -little children who want to leave Scientology and take off without approval and are declared suppressive persons so they're Fair Game. Uh, I mean, just this last week, this last week--last ten days alone, I have heard of two more people who have had their children write to them to disconnect from them saying that they're not allowed to talk with their parents anymore because their parents um, will either not do Scientology or who post in a forum that is critical of Scientology.

TS: Yeah.

LB: But I'm just saying there's thousands and thousands of people like this, um, that this applies to. It is a very inhumane organization, to say the least.

TS: Yeah. Well there is a profiling tactic that, that's used in the Scientology organization, too, and they have this information on the suppressive person, they list 12 characteristics. However when they label somebody and the labeling is done by anybody in the organization authorized to do it, it's done only by that person authorizing it, there is actually no reference made to the actual characteristics. And going a level deeper than that, Hubbard came up with these characteristics, uh, not by any, uh, scientific research or anything that was published and peer reviewed, it was basically his, uh, his idea. His whole- Those were his notions. And uh, there's actually if you look at the definition, the, well, the accepted definition in the field of psychology of a psychopath, it's ah, quite different from what in Scientology is called an anti-social personality or a suppressive person. Uh, I think that is an interesting point as well, but when they label somebody suppressive person it's because they - somebody in the organization, ah, wants to uh, derogatorily label that person and uh subject them to persecution.

LB: Yeah. Boy, that's, that's totally true.

TS: [laughter]

LB: I agree with you there. It's - it is incredibly sad, I mean it's unbelievable. I mean, I don't even want to - I'm not even going to bring up details of this but I've seen it right within my own family and I've seen it - I remember watching on TV, um, a former spokesman of the Office of Special Affairs on CNN saying 'oh, we are - we bring families together and we do not - disconnection is not a policy that we do' and like a week later [chuckles] my--one of my best friend's daughters disconnects from him. And I remember being called by a member of the Commodore's Messenger Organization and me being threatened if I didn't disown my daughter who had left staff without permission. And I - I told him words I cannot say on your radio program?

TS: Yes.

LB: It's just rampant and ongoing. It's certainly a scary world that they are building, too, but, but, the thing to me is they are - they are so obviously organized Scientology lying about the controls and the structure and their policies that I believe something can be done about it and the average person can do something about it and I mean, I have a, I have a few suggestions, and like for one thing, if you're a government, like for example we know in Belgium there the prosecution there is asking for approval to go ahead and prosecute on some very serious crimes based on a ten-year investigation.

TS: Yeah.

LB: And many other countries in Europe are looking into Crimes by organized Scientology, and my suggestion to them is, you know, whether it has to do with medical practice without a license or just false imprisonment, or all the many other myriad of horrible things that are done under the name of their ecclesiastical policy realize what they're really dealing with is an international foreign criminal organization that truly controls it. It's one're going to bust some poor guy in Belgium, or Germany, Hamburg, wherever for doing some abusive act to somebody else locally, is fair enough, but there's just going to be another guy doing that there next year if you don't get to the root of what is behind those abuses, and what's behind those abuses are organized Scientology and their interpretation of Hubbard policies to oppress and suppress people that are, you know, that they view to be enemies which is a very large part of the population. And, um, so one, I believe they should take their investigations beyond you know, just the local scene and realize that they've got to deal with the international organization. Two, I found out by a government representative in Germany, Ursula, actually a wonderful person over in Hamburg, that the state department is after, is on their case all the time about, you know, why are you harassing Scientology, what has Scientology done wrong, and the state department representatives have no idea what Scientology has done that's wrong, yet Ursula has to live with it.

TS: Yeah.

LB: She made a suggestion which I really support and that is, if everyone in the US for example, you could do this in any country, but if everyone in the US who has been abused and in particular, lets say you've had family ripped apart or children taken away from mothers or fathers or vice versa, whatever, by organized Scientology, write a one- page, simple letter to your congressional or senatorial representative letting them know this is what really is the case. Don't embellish it, don't lie, just tell the truth.

TS: Yeah.

LB: And through the senate and through the congress, they will often communicate to other departments like the IRS, the state department, the whatever, and, and that is how you can get information known and spread about in government circles in a way that will impinge and really the beauty of this is that people are just trying to get out the truth.

Now the other thing, which is absolutely amazing to me is I've been reading a lot of legal documents and court cases that Scientology has filed where they're using their using their IRS exemption recognition from 1993

TS: That's a 501(c)3

LB: Oh, that's a whole other five shows right there, Tom, just talking on that one.

TS: OK, Allright

LB: But they use that, for example, to say, "Oh, the IRS has done the most extensive investigation that they've ever done on anyone, and this proves that we're all beautiful and wonderful, and our corporate integrity is perfect, and all this stuff, it doesn't prove, they've used it in cases like Wollersheim's cases and that, where they've said the IRS has shown that our corporations are separate, and they don't run each other, and and in fact, it hasn't shown anything like that. For one thing, how they got their exemption, you know, is up to investigation, but, there's nothing in the rules of exemption about one corporation controlling another. If they were both considered exempt, for example, then they're exempt. It doesn't matter who controls it, so it doesn't prove who controls anything, whatever they got from the IRS.

Secondly, I think it proves the opposite, I mean, look at it. Within days of meeting with the IRS, they could put up a tax compliance committee made up of Miscavige and seven or eight or nine or ten top Sea Org members who could control all the auditing, financial representations for hundreds of organizations, maybe 120 or however many organizations. Well, wait a minute. Now they can also speak for the 120 organizations immediately? I mean, doesn't that tend to imply they do have a legal control over those organizations? So what's funny is, the very thing they used to try and say, to confuse people and say, "This proves that we're separate, and we're distinct, and there's no liability running up the lines from one corporation to another, actually it proves the opposite. It's mind-boggling how boldly and how blatantly they'll lie about something.

TS: Yeah, the thing is, most people assume good faith, and they, and they, particularly with a religious organization, they're going to assume that they have some kind of public interest at heart, or at least some good intention there, overall good intention, and, but what we're seeing here from this group is, there's a facade on the outside that uses celebrities and religious cloaking, but on the inside, it seems like, it seems to be running itself like an unscrupulous business.

LB: Well, yeah, and I would agree with that, and it's not only with respect to who they consider enemies, but it's their own people. I've seen it, and people have testified to this since then, since I've been in there, but they'll take every dime they can from all the local organizations they control, which includes Narconons, and education groups, Scientology churches and missions, and they'll take 90% of alltheir revenues if they could, and I know. I set up... Part of the corporate evolution was to set up trusts, like a films trust, to pull out five or ten percent of quote unquote churches' weekly revenues to pay for the films that they got. But, whatever it was, there was always some significance to...because Hubbard believed that the local organizations could not be trusted with not spending all the money, so international management had to take it from them. And when I presented the corporate solutions to Miscavige for approval, at a time period when he said he was not involved with it at all, and then in fact he did approve it, he had to be the final approval. When I presented it to him, most of his questions were on how could he continue to control it, how can we take mostly all of their money? And, so, my point in saying this is that, it isn't just their quote unquote enemies that get mistreated or abused, it's their own people, because many of the people on their own staffs are getting what? Nothing, five dollars a week, thirty dollars a week, they have children. They can't clothe their children properly, they're not fed properly, not, they don't have a medical program, they have no retirement program, it's absolute hell. There are people who have been thirty years plus in their Sea Organization who right now are in penal camps and about to be released into the world with no health program, no retirement program, nothing. No other skills, and they could care less. So, I don't know anybody who isn't, ultimately as a public, who isn't ultimately hurt by these people.

TS: Yeah, this is actually, the staff members often have to work second jobs and, they, struggling to make ends meet there, because they're not getting paid very much, because the money is being evidently, as you say, siphoned off, and these people are really struggling just to get by. They work long hours, they're subject to rather unusual, let's just say, unusual penalties, to be polite, and it's just, it's kind of a bad deal. After they decide to leave, or in some case they have a contract if they're a regular staff member, they don't really have any savings, anything really put aside because you really can't, well, you have to work a second job just to pay your rent, usually they rent, usually they don't own a house, pay the rent and food and things like that, if they have kids, I mean it's just, it's quite a burden on somebody and there's nothing that they really get for it.

LB: Well, I agree, and it's just a sad thing, and that's why I'm saying, you know, the things that could be done, is if you've got a story, write it. Send it to your Congressional reps if you've been beaten by this guy, let me tell you something, I've been informed by a major reporter, that within two weeks of today, major national press is ready to release details on Miscavige's beatings of people. It's just two more people besides myself who'll come forward and go on the record. That's how close it is, there are one or two other persons who simply just tells the truth and lets their name be known can start letting the world know what this guy really is like and what he's really doing, and at no point are any lies and embellishments wanted or called for, it's that close, there's so much we could do right now.

There's the FactNet questionaire, there's some 140 questions asking many, many details of, that involve criminality and all that, involving organized Scientology and Miscavige. There's answering those things. There's testifying, I know that governments like Belgium and so forth, or I don't know, but I believe they're gonna need to speak with certain people who have information that'll help with the prosecution, and I think being willing to testify to help them is another good thing. If you've been beaten, file a complaint. That's it. Simple as that. There is no reason that a person has to stand there and be spit on, humiliated, beaten and have to just not take it. Some people aren't speaking up because they don't want to destroy what they consider to be their church. Well, I'm saying, if that's what their church is all about, it ought to be destroyed. But let's focus on, you don't have to take on, fight all of Scientology or be against every single principle of Scientology to point out that, you know, David Miscavige beat you. I'm just saying, tell the truth. If you have relevant information to the questionaires, if you have relevant information to testimony, if you can talk about the disconnections that happen, if you can be freely open with the press about this, education will come out, the light of truth will shine, and, you know, the problem will take care of itself. Anyway, that's my opinion, and I think the truth is what's needed and the truth is what can really make a big difference.

TS: Right, I mean when one person commits physical violence like that against another, these people should make a report to the sheriff or police department and see to it that the criminal investigation is carried out. It's just, these people should learn not to take that kind of abuse, that's just horrendous.

LB: That's right! And I'll also say as a message, in case any of these people ever hear this, but if you are in organized Scientology right now, let's say you're an OSA person and you're listening to this as you're about to report on me, and figure out how to fair game me, or sue me or whatever for Miscavige, let me tell you something. Take a look around the internet, and what I'm saying here, I'm willing to explain this to anyone, if any Scientology celebrities want to contact me, I'm willing to give them absolute details on everything that I've said here so that they can have the truth available to them, and I'm just telling you. Miscavige, he has the control there, he can beat up people, and seize the accounts and all that, because everyone's afraid of him. But he, in RTC, he truly can't control CSI. Corporately, it only takes two people to remove another director. Or two trustees to remove another trustee. You can stand up any time, if you're in organized Scientology, and simply throw him out. And, I'm just telling you, let's just start with the truth, and let a lot of it be known, and if that happens, you know, maybe some of our governments will start doing their duty and investigating some of the crimes allowed to go on within this organization.

TS: Larry, we're running out of time, I'd actually, I mean, I know you can talk for hours and hours more on this. We've been interviewing Larry Brennan, who was in a high position in the Church of Scientology for a number of years in the Guardian's Office, which is now known as the Office of Special Affairs. That's the arm of Scientology that handles intelligence, litigation, internal legal, public relations, any other functions there? The Guardian's Office used to handle finance, but...

LB: That's right. They also used to handle social coordination, which was like the Narconon, and the education programs like, Applied Scholastics I think, they're saying that's now done through ABLE, and not so much OSA. That's where some of those functions went.

TS: Okay. But that's actually Office of Special Affairs, which is OSA, basically administers ABLE, these social groups though, they oversee them.

LB: There isn't any local group that has the freedom to make their own decisions that's involved with the Scientology structure, and it all is ultimately centrally controlled. It's just that, one is going to have to pierce the corporate veils legally to make Miscavige and people like that responsible, but it's there and they control it, every one of them, doesn't matter which organization they are in, they're centrally controlled.

TS: Yeah. Larry, really appreciate your being on the program today, we'd like to have you back in the future, there's a number of other topics we can kind of branch off from. We've been talking about various abuses, personal abuses as well as different corporate abuses within the church. of Scientology itself, and these abuses actually go beyond what one would normally think of in terms of what a religion should do, and it appears that there's, the structure of this organization really is more on the ken of an unscrupulous business rather than a bona fide religion. This is something that we need to be aware of as citizens, something we need to really look at, a number of governments in Europe are actually taking action, really understand what's going on, don't approve of these abuses and are taking action. Hubbard did say, "Never fear to hurt another in a just cause," and he also used the term, "The greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics." These statements are both euphamisms for the principle of the ends justifies the means, and that principle has been used throughout history to justify all sorts of atrocities. These atrocities need to stop. I'm Tom Smith, I'm the producer and host of The Edge, we'll be back again next week with another interesting guest.

Photo: Courtesy of, Larry Brennan
Transcription courtesy of volunteers: Fiesty, Maggie Council and Barbz Warr

Thanks to Hillsborough Community College & Hawk Radio, Tom Smith with The Edge, and former Scientologist / Scientology high ranking executive, Larry Brennan.

For more information about Scientology, visit and
Google Usenet group: alt.religion.scientology